#if you can't handle the fact that the things you're doing harm other women then stop f****** doing them

[feral-radfem]

Hey if you're a non-radfem and you want to make a complaint that radical feminist critique keeps getting applied to you because you hang around radical feminist spaces here is my advice: leave.

Honestly, I'm so tired of seeing this shit. Go find some other places to hang out. I don't care that you came here because everyone else kicked you out for being a "transphobe". That does not make it our responsibility to soften our movement and our criticisms so that you feel comfortable in a movement you have no intention of of committing to. You are welcome here on the basis of being a woman, however, if you can't handle the feminist action that goes on in these spaces, then you need to leave. That is a you problem, not ours. I'm tired of hearing y'all whine that we don't coddle you enough and then adding anecdotal evidence of feminist harm or strawmen arguments for why you're justified in doing patriarchal actions were other women are not. There is not a single identifier or life experience you can tell me that is going to make me think that you deserve to be exempt from the same criticisms I would level at any other woman. If you're an adult, you should be mature enough to hear them. If you are not mature enough to hear feminist critique, you need to leave feminist spaces.

if you want to be self-serving, it is completely your right to do so. I've heard a number of you in passing claim that you "don't want to be feminist, you want to be people". Which, while that's an insulting sentiment as a feminist, just demonstrates that the only person y'all care about is yourself. You see being a person as inherently being self-serving and self-centered. First and foremost, it's all about you. That level of selfishness is pathetic and frowned upon in collective spaces. Feminism being one of them.

Just save us all the headache and go away. Y'all are one of the only groups of people on the internet who are able to piss me off in seconds, istg.

[genericpuff]

hi, i know the episode came out weeks ago, but i wanted to talk about ep 277 and your essay on it. i thought it was very well thought out and had brought up lots of concerns abt apollo's other victims and the harm persephone caused to others that i just. hadn't really thought about myself because honestly this webcomic is a BLUR to me LOL. thank you for writing these insights and putting them online for others to read ! i think you manage to keep a respectful distance to rachel [1/]

Yeah, regarding how the SA was handled...

I think Rachel did exactly as well as anyone might have expected someone like her to write a plotline like that.

Honestly if Rachel really did want to do the arrow thing, I think it would have worked WAY better if she had used the arrow of hate. First of all, because it had already been established back in S2 when it was shot at him by Psyche, but ALSO because making it an arrow of love confirmed that Eros literally did what Apollo asked despite the fact that he's Persephone's best friend and should have been more suspicious of what he was going to use it for. Why not just do a bait & switch where Apollo is under the impression that it's an arrow of love but Persephone trusts in her friend and pieces it together that it's probably an arrow of hate? It would also payoff the whole "news crew being nearby" thing (as well as all the other gods that just randomly showed up) because uh oh now they all see his true nature and he can't hide behind his lies anymore!

After all, as I mentioned in my previous post about this (the one I believe you're referring to) it's not like there wasn't already foreshadowing that Apollo was going to fall on his own sword the way of Mr Waternoose from Monster's Inc, he was already showing signs of cracking under the guilt that he was feeling towards how he treated Persephone/Eris/Hermes/etc. so why did it have to be Persephone taking a massive risk by sticking him with an arrow of love that still doesn't fully explain why he would even suddenly be a changed man? Loads of people like Apollo think they're in love / define their infatuation as love so I don't see how an arrow of love would suddenly make him empathetic to her pain. Especially when, again, he still begs her not to make him confess, so the guilt he's feeling is still completely empty and unmotivated.

I will leave this with one final thing that I saw the other day that very much reminded me of the Apollo SA plotline and I think it rings very true for the misdirected conclusion of the plot itself:

One of the biggest issues of the Apollo SA plotline, at least in my opinion, is that it never really gets to the root of why people like Apollo exist. There absolutely were strong foundations for this - he's the son of a guy who's known for being a serial cheater, he's popular and egotistical and is used to women wanting him, etc. - but all of those foundations kind of fell to the wayside in favor of turning Apollo into just another boogeyman, especially to lift Hades up as a "good man" by comparison (when Hades himself also falls on this spectrum). But many people like Apollo aren't just random guys in an alleyway or conspiring with some "higher power" that's manipulating them, they're men who fundamentally do not understand consent and assault on the varying spectrums in which it exists from "SA just exists, oh well" passiveness to "I'm an actual monster who gets pleasure out of victimizing women" aggressiveness. I think there's a lot to discuss about how people like Apollo exist WITHOUT sympathizing with them, but LO manages to do neither - not only does it give us uncomfortable and unnecessary looks into the rapist's POV more than we get the victims, but it does it in a way that doesn't actually address the issue of how people like Apollo come to be, it's just "Apollo is the big evil boogeyman who raped Persephone". Not only does it not actually put enough focus on the victims, but it reduces the societal and cultural complexities of where Apollo's brand of egotistical entitlement comes from to just "some guys just be evil like that". Guys like Apollo don't just come out of the womb like that, they're often shaped into what they are by a society that both excuses them for awful behavior towards girls ("Boys will be boys!") and enables - if not outright encourages - them to objectify women as trophies that they're entitled to. Even the seemingly innocent and sentimental practice of "giving away a bride" at a wedding is rooted in these patriarchal systems, with the belief that a woman first "belongs" to her father before being "given to" her husband.

It's the part of feminism that often gets overlooked - it's not just about uplifting female voices and helping survivors speak up about and heal from SA, it's also about deconstructing and challenging the patriarchal systems that lead to SA victims being created in the first place. Sure, Apollo got sentenced to building temples in the Mortal Realm, but what is that actually doing to address the bigger topic of how men like him come to exist in the first place? Especially when it was also treated as a good thing for TGOEM to be disbanded, instead of, idk... reworking it into a women's support group for survivors like Persephone?

IDK, it's a very complicated subject that you can approach from a million different angles, I don't think that my criticizing it should outweigh the opinions of those who were satisfied with the punishment that was given to Apollo (my saying the SA plotline sucked doesn't mean you're not allowed to find your own validation in it) but I do think that, at best, Rachel ended the SA plotline the only way she could because she herself is just not equipped to tackle such broad subjects that require a lot more education, experience, and nuance than what she's capable of writing. There are definitely 1298423108 better ways that plotline could have been resolved, but not with Rachel Smythe at the helm.

And that's my many cents on that.

[pillarsalt]

Anon who said we should admit there are extremist wackos in radfem communities here, I'm sorry it wasn't targeted at you specifically!! You're one of the few who keep the focus on women's rights, safety, and freedoms, which is why I sent the ask to you.

You finding the "vaginas don't have nerve endings" lady is what spurred my ask. Because she's a perfect example of nearly everything wrong with some people in radfem spaces:

- Taking correct observations other women have made about sexism and using them to say controversial, incorrect, often-sexist things for attention because they don't know how to get attention for *insightful and good* observations because they don't know how to make their own. "Women's biology is sidelined and causes a ton of medical issues and misinformation" becomes "Because of the above, I can take any random fact we *do* know about female biology and claim it's a lie made up in ignorance."

- Taking the fact that, because misogyny is so normalized, a lot of feminist messaging comes off as radical (in the other sense of the word) even if it's not, and turning it into "Every belief I have that causes a huge uproar... that uproar is proof that I'm right."

- Taking the above and combining with the stubborn, "I won't let you get away with your misogynistic arguments" radfem activist mentality and turning it against other feminist-minded women. "If you disagree with me, a feminist, on how to handle this topic, you must be anti-feminist, hate women, and want us to suffer misogyny forever."

And now the comments section!

- Taking the fact that there are a lot of mansplainer asshole men who don't argue in good faith and turning it into "Everyone who disagrees with me, a feminist, is a male MRA troll."

- Taking the fact that so many TRAs lie about what radfems believe and are willing to create fake proof of us being alt-right and/or wanting to genocide trans people, and turning it into "Whenever someone who posts in radfem circles says crazy shit, it's a TRA impersonator."

Just the way women on here reacted to this poster alone is evidence to me something's rotten. You've got different women saying she's a troll, she's a man, or both... and no one is willing to believe that maybe she's genuine? No one sees how there are factors in the community, especially when a lot of the popular posters exhibit a lot of these negative things and outright state "Yeah my feminism isn't for all women fuck you lol", that might lead to women like this poster genuinely thinking this way? No one in a feminist community is willing to believe the misogyny we constantly talk about being so pervasive and insidious might not just affect "normie" women and conservatives, maybe well-meaning women trying to be feminist, too?

Thanks for your input, anon. It's a weird complicated situation. I think really the reason people are wary of this account being bait or a troll is because, well, we're on the internet and feminists are a big target for men who want to fuck with us. There have always been (and will probably always be) bad actors trying to sow discordance between women in these spaces, so understandably many of us are wary. It happens very often. And a pretty featureless (as in generic looking and unpersonalized) account aggressively defending inflammatory views that are just unreasonably removed from reality, despite being shown evidence to the contrary, and supposedly in the name of feminism, I think that pings a lot of people's "shit disturber" radars.

But yes, the benefit of the doubt is usually best... I tried to explain why I disagreed and why her line of thinking is harmful, but when it seemed like it wasn't going anywhere, I decided to let it go. I didn't mean for it to get so much traction, and I don't think arguing incessantly with someone who has a foundational difference in beliefs and who is not willing to consider other viewpoints is gonna go anywhere. But I also really can't blame the women who are offended by the "dick worshippers" thing, and that she's now insisting any lesbian who likes sex toy penetration (with no male involvement whatsoever) is actually not homosexual but in fact secretly bisexual, and that lesbians who use toys to pleasure their partner are mimicking men instead of just... having sex in a way that feels good. It's genuinely hurtful rhetoric. Calling it when you see it is part of holding each other accountable, no matter where the vitriol stems from in the first place. Now, just saying "you're not a radfem if you do/think _____" is not the way to go about it, I agree. That's really just identity politics again. But yeah, insulting a bunch of women on an aspect as personal as sexuality, that's going to create a lot of backlash in any circumstance. I understand the reactions, but I also think it's better for everyone to realize that a stranger's opinion of you is not actually important, and can be easily ignored and moved on from.

I also have to disagree that no one has considered she genuinely holds these beliefs, you can find women in the post's notes talking about their own experiences with OCD and other dark mental places that previously led them to similar patterns of illogical thinking. I've had a couple asks and replies to asks with the same thing. I think we shouldn't be antagonistic, but I also don't think anyone's required to be friendly with someone who's lashing out at them with misogyny and lesbophobia. I really hope that she can heal and find solidarity with other women and other lesbians, the women who talked about their own blackpill experiences in their younger days give me hope that she will find her way out.

But hostility towards others with similar longterm goals WILL isolate you, and I'm not sure what the solution is for someone who functions like that. The only thing I can think of is that hopefully she will continue reading and learning from other women and open her mind to the full spectrum of women's views and experiences, and maybe finally understand exactly WHY what she said has had such a negative response.

You sound like a compassionate person and I appreciate your dedication to nuance.

[trans-androgyne]

I'm so sick of this. Trans men could be fucking like "lets have a discussion about unsavory attitudes or actions within queer communities when it comes to gender" and a bunch of fucking people INCLUDING OTHER TRANS MASCS are like "wooooooow cant believe youre attacking TRANS WOMEN like that this is obviously bigotry. after all theyve been through?? I am going to assume this mild criticism is about trans women (which you never said it was at all even once) and THEN tell you that because transphobia exists any disagreement with a trans woman means you want her to be HARASSED. I can't believe you think harassment is okay. also even though trans women are poor victims (I am speaking on behalf of all trans women) who you arent allowed say anything in opposition to (I think trans women are defenseless and attack people based on the idea that any criticism is trying to ruin their lives) (don't you know its impossible for a trans woman to ever be treated with respect or have a good life ever and in fact they are all doomed to being treated horribly?) (this is me HELPING trans women by the way I'm an ALLY) and trans men are the problem and somehow even though we're all in the same community Poor Trans Women are so oppressed they would be RUINED by disagreements (I am speaking on behalf of every trans woman and I know not a single one wants to have an interesting discussion about oppression or gender) this is me being an ally btw I could never be transmisogynistic by talking like this. also somehow transphobes check what type of trans you are, if youre a trans woman they hate you and if youre a trans man they say "yay you're a man" and treat you wonderfully because if youre a man youre always treated well no matter what other types of oppression you might face I think of this as being progressive.

Sorry for the long rant(?) I have a lot of thoughts. In summary: some people see themselves as such trans woman defenders that they a hundred percent loop around to infantilising them by implying its too hurtful to have a conversation. I've seen this exact type of behaviour as a trans man when it comes to misgendering. someone slips up and instead of being like "oops I mean he" they go some equivalent of "oh my gosh im sooooo sorry i cant believe I did that to you you probably feel miserable have I ruined your day oh my goodness dont cry ill make it up to you I know you have now become an emotional wreck from the horrible thing I did to you im sorry im sorry im sorry I just need to make sure everybody can hear how HURT you are by one misgendering" this is an example of how "being an ally" loops around to calling you fragile and a literal baby. They make it worse even though theyre "on your side" by implying you cant handle anything and they have to "fix it" because you just would collapse immediately at something maybe affecting you.

On the one hand, I understand where a lot of this is coming from. Trans women do get harassment campaigns started against them for small issues. It’s best not to resolve real problems with specific transfems in a public forum. So many have described the feeling of transmisogynistic hypervisibility as a panopticon and that very much applies in these discussions.

But trans women also aren’t made of glass. And they aren’t immune from making mistakes and causing harm. Making posts that contradict some trans women’s understandings of transmasc oppression is not transmisogyny. Pointing out that something they said or did was hurtful or transphobic is not transmisogyny. People act like this is how you treat trans women with respect and it’s very much not. This is not being “normal” about trans women. They are human beings who yes need some extra care and protection but are also capable of talking things out instead of collapsing into dust at the first sign of criticism. I know not all trans women like being treated this way in the slightest. I hope we’ll be able to find ways in the community to still uplift their voices and mitigate harm done to them without putting them on a high pedestal or shielding them from all criticism and intracommunity discussion that does not go their way.

[jack-bytez-genuine-corner]

Watched Barbie.

* It wears it's brand of corporate backed feminism on it's sleeve while deconstructing what that means

* It's really empowering for all, with it's main plot being killer for young girls and women, and it's B plot being wonderful for queer and men.

* I really liked the fact that the movie straight up points out how contradictory standards for women are. You have to be powerful but you also have to respectful to the disrespectful, you have to have a career but also be available for everyone at all times, you have to be a mom but your kids can't be you whole life, etc etc. You can't just be a person, you have to be perfect and exemplary, you have to be highly skilled but also not show up men, and I really love that so much of the film is just telling the audience to be themselves because these standards aren't just flawed, they're impossible and unhealthy for you and for others. This movie isn't hiding it's stance against the ridiculously unfair social structures in Western society, specifically more aimed at places like the US, EU, UK. I can't state how happy I am with how the movie handled these topics.

* Lots of small jabs at corporations and corporate structure alongside the idea that men can empower women when they hold all the power in a corporate setting. Like you're saying the right thing but your position is lacking authenticity because you lack the lived experiences of a woman. It doesn't say men can't be allies, but it really does try to highlight how true empowerment comes from authenticity and diversity, not assumptions and old school thought processes.

* Really shocked at how succint they handled the idea of patriarchy and it's many harms against women and just women existing, alongside the less talked about harm towards men in the B plot. I know I'm speaking from a position of privilege but it felt good to see a movie cover a thing that actively made me depressed in my teens, especially since it might help a young guy who goes to the movie for his little sister might help internalize that you're not evil for just being a man and that the social standard for what a "Man" is, is just as much of a prison as it is a way to move up in the world with it being more important to just be "You" than to just be the social standard of "Manliness."

* it has some of the best action choreography I've seen in years

* very funny movie and I laughed loudly in the theater

* lots of casting of conventionally unattractive actors, especially in terms of women. I really enjoyed all the old women, all the POC, I loved every second of how much screen real estate spent on making sure people feel included and front and center: If a scene is happening, they don't shove people in the back for "Perfect" women or "Perfect" Kens all up front, it's a shared space. I really, really, really want more normal people just in movies.

* Gay Ken makes an appearance alongside Barbie's pregnant friend and that weird puberty friend

* Existential dread surrounding existence, for kids! It's really well done, jokes aside

* I love how good the movie looked and sounded

* this is really dumb given that I'm a cis man but I felt really seen given how much I struggle with masculinity and being gay. This movies B plot with Ken would have been inspiring to a young me in terms of not trying to be the "Man" but just be "Lycan Bytez."

* I don't think I've seen a movie do so good at highlighting the plight of women so well in it's A plot.

* I really liked how focused and good the messages in the A, B and C plot was.

* I want to buy a depression Barbie now, thanks for the marketing on it.

10/10 I might have cried quite a bit. I didn't think a Barbie movie would be able to talk so well about the human experience in my life and the lives of loved ones.

[becoming-who-ive-always-been]

A few things I've experienced with Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)... 

It's very effective REGARDLESS OF AGE.

It's "quick" - subtle in some regards, obvious in others - I had great results with HRT in the first 8 months!

HRT for trans-women usually involves an estrogen and a T-blocker. Eventually, you may be able to drop the T-blocker and just smother your testosterone with all the estrogen you're taking, but I'm not a doctor and can't give the details. 

Progesterone is another one you can take.

HRT changes can include (but aren't limited to):

Breast growth

Smoother/softer skin

Fat redistribution - everything from a more femme face to fuller hips, tapered waist, and more femme fanny... 

Genital shrinkage (not that I had much to shrink), that includes infertility (since you're "fighting" the testosterone). Shrinkage can be averted, if you want, with erections, though... (read: daily masturbation)

Other size changes. 

Ligaments may shrink and this can make you shorter (I've lost about 3/4")

Hands and feet get smaller(-ish)... 

Surprise~! Period cycles~!! Many trans women experience period symptoms (minus bleeding of course) - for me it's been around my remedication date... which is something you'll have to do going forward...

Orgasms change - Sex feels so different on HRT and female orgasms are possible... 

Senses change - 

Women have a better sense of smell and color differentiation than men. HRT "adjusts" these for you (and FYI - men smell TERRIBLE now) 😋

The way things taste changes... sometimes for the better, sometimes for the meh...

Emotions change - wildly - with the period cycles mentioned above, but also things touch me differently than they did - though I was always kind of "weepy" or "sensitive"...

Despite the common "warnings", you don't need to be young to start HRT. 

Most things will occur regardless of your age, and some things associated with pubescent HRT can still happen, like:

hip spreading - kind of a dull-ache/growing-pains kind of thing...

breast and nipple sensitivity to touch and to being touched... sometimes even a tee-shirt can feel "off" or wrong... though a bra can help if it's lined right (another reason to wear one~!!! 😊)... 

tapering/curving waist between the hips and breasts... 

Personally, my experience on HRT includes:

Body hair thinning/body hair growth slowing - though I never had hairy legs or chest (thankfully)...

Hair regrowth! Since balding is heavily linked to testosterone, and if you unfortunately suffer from balding (like I did) you have a chance of either stalling or even reversing that process (like I have!) - in fact, my hair up there has become thicker and glossier...

...and my hair "down there" has gotten less tightly curled...

Eye shape change - they're larger and clearer now.

My cheek bones are more prominent, and my jaw has thinned.

Muscle mass has been MASSIVELY reduced (so much for all that time spent in the gym exercising)

My body odor changed... (for the better... 😋)

Things generally feel different now due to thinner skin... and not just my boobs...

Also - I'M SO COLD~!!! 🥶🤭

Crying is easier now - though, as I said above, I've always been kind of "weepy..."

Like my hips spreading, my shoulders "narrowed" - I can fit in dresses and tops now that I had to squeeze into before transitioning.

A couple of other, "general" things:

A lot of HRT effects are reversible in the first 6 months or so... and even beyond...

There is no harm in just trying 'em and seeing if it makes you feel better - but again, I'm not a doctor (I don't even play one on TV 😋).

A few things HRT will NOT do:

Facial hair removal. While it may thin or slow your beard, it won't remove it completely. You'll need electrolysis or laser removal to handle that.

Voice change - After puberty your voice is pretty much locked. You may have some slight changes due to your jaw shifting and facial muscles being "reshaped", but you'll need voice training to get where you want. That said, voice training can be VERY effective... My voice never was some "basso profundo" masculine sounding thing anyway... and I remember my voice didn't "change" until well past my mid-teens - I often got answered with a "Yes, ma'am" when I was on the phone, and I had such mixed feelings about it whenever it happened - ranging from "How did they find out about my secret?" to "YES~! Finally~!!!"

HRT is - or can be - magic, but not literally...

Still tired, but whole ✨

(this drawing is now 1.5 years old haha)

[the-firebird69]

We're having some recent developments and they involved this area there are too many people bowing out of doing any kind of job for anyone except for taking money stealing it or doing cheesy arts and crafts and arts and crafts is like hope it's focus and paper has to be real good at sucks and doing it on purpose they actually run around saying it it doesn't do anything for them matter of fact it's caused a lot of harm a lot of them are been very hurt by it. Women alone solutions that we can deploy p but thinking about which one and which one will work can we remember our son saying anything that works that we can get away with I don't know why that's not reasonable for doing it and it's working was trying to work a little bit better we really needed it too this is terrible here it's a lot of people who are in pain in the ass lot things are too hard to do too hard to get and sleeping is hard getting a laundry done is a nightmare I'm in every single stupid basic necessity has become excruciating similar around parts of the planet too if you look at it I'm trying to find the similarities in the reaction the sun said I'm a leader you're doing the wrong thing and I react differently and it's true they don't care so he's devastating them and they're getting up and doing it again everyday transformation with them they fluff It off so he's sick and stuff he's not doing the job it's always good doing the job I get killed a lot of them getting killed today is going to be a big day for that kind of action they were annoying is pretty good at the Golden corral they're going to pay for it so you better check the attitude and they said no what the hell is wrong if you get killed once a day is it enough or you have to get killed like five times a day what's the magic number so you said you like doing it to each other cuz you're a bunch of f****** ninnies calm down and then stop doing it I said you know what it is calmed it down and they saw Tommy have going to work and her son said the empire wants them to go after you and wants them to after you so he calmed down he said no this is not my job and you guys do not have control over yourself there's got to be some solid concrete reasons the looking around here a lot of women are ducking same stuff can help it they're being brutalized by their men and they can't stop them and you see them being pushed these two are just kind of meandering around turns out there just falling for their stuff badly and they are terrible terrible terrible at it and I can't see how or why or where it's coming from and it is horrible.

They found out today that they're doing the wrong thing to find out everyday and it's disgusting it's true after another shifts and they're going to continue their rant in their stupid s*** and he's right they're just really not going to be great revels ever and bJ said it I said we really suck and that's what it is you're probably right about the ships so we're starting to do and if they can't join forces with people like alphas or miscellaneous like X-Men which is what they start playing and are mixed it seems like they do that's pretty late in the recognize they have skills you don't need so on and they're burden and it's terrible. And a son he says it's like owning one of the brand new Lamborghinis new style you guys can handle most of the car for the course so we are going to do our jobs I'm trying to build things and make things happen the short of it is we have to get to work here and right now

Thor Freya

Olympus

[jarredlharris]

Thoughts while listening to a podcast episode critiquing the spiritual warfare movement.

I did a live thread capturing my thoughts as I listened to an episode of the Go Home Bible (You're Drunk) podcast. The following is an aggregated copy of that thread.

I don't listen regularly to @gohomebible (please don't hate me @JustinDGentry), but I occasionally listen to one of their podcasts. The title of their most recent one caught my eye.

Anything about "spiritual warfare" always piques my interest. For a few reasons:

While In college, I got into the spiritual warfare movement. So I have a history.

As a Pagan witch, I'm often a regular villain in the minds of those who practice spiritual warfare.

As a witch, I'm fascinated and amused by how much of the spiritual warfare practices seem to mimic witchcraft and other forms of magic. This is especially amusing in light of #2 in this list. So, this is a livetweet thread of the latest @gohomebible episode.

(Wow, a podcast listen-and-tweet session by me that's not focused on @ThereafterPod? Can everyone handle it.) Anyway, pressing the play button on the episode now.

.@JustinDGentry: "Current debtholder." Seen, Justin. Seen. @gohomebible

.@JustinDGentry and @ToriGlass are talking about how "putting women on a pedestal" is still objectifying them. @gohomebible

Quick! Someone should start a pool taking bets on how many times I tag the wrong podcast in this thread. @gohomebible

I love how all of these podcasts promote each other. Beautiful stuff. @gohomebible

They're talking about "Sound of Freedom" right now. An important conversation. @gohomebible

Discussing (evangelical) men's need to rescuing "things" (particularly women just puts me in mind of the "Damsel in Distress" trope in video games that Anita Sarkeesian covered years ago. Apparently, saving Princess Peach isn't enough for some guys. @gohomebible

.@ToriGlass is talking about how evangelicals seem to implicitly trust other (evangelical) Christians without fact-checking or critical thinking. Excellent point. @gohomebible

About to get to the spiritual warfare discussion. Can't wait! @gohomebible

So apparently the Patreon levels for the podcast are named after church leadership positions? That's kinda funny. @gohomebible

.@JustinDGentry: If you ever had to cast out a demon or learn to do so, you have permission to drink throughout the episode." Guess I should've bought a ton of booze. @gohomebible

They're talking about how much paranoia there is in the spiritual warfare movement. So true. @gohomebible

As an aside, the number is still "zero," but there have been quite a few close calls. @gohomebible

@JarredH: Quick! Someone should start a pool taking bets on how many times I tag the wrong podcast in this thread. @gohomebible

@JustinDGentry is talking about how people in his life attributed sleep paralysis to demons. I'd imagine that'd be pretty unhelpful and harmful. @gohomebible

In my experience, those in the spiritual warfare are extremely skeptical of and hostile to therapy. Probably a huge reason for that. @gohomebible

.@ToriGlass is giving a high level (and probably simplified) explanation of the neurological causes behind sleep paralysis and it's pretty interesting. Would love to learn more. @gohomebible

.@ToriGlass: "We're weirdos." Reminds me of the line from "The Craft." It was a much better line in that movie, though. @gohomebible

.@JustinDGentry is suggesting that ND people might want to take more nuance when talking about how their upbringing impacted them. Probably, but I'd say that's good advice for NT people at way. @gohomebible

Yay! @JustinDGentry mentioned prayer walks! I forget how many of those I and my friends did while in college. @gohomebible

.@ToriGlass mentioned that there are pastors who teach that autism is caused by demons. I realize he's not the only one, but I gotta ask: Are we avoiding mentioning Greg Locke by name? @gohomebible

Kinda waiting for @ToriGlass and @JustinDGentry to say "victim blaming." @gohomebible

Those poor pigs! (You'll have to listen to understand the context.) @gohomebible

.@JustinDGentry: "If I jerk off too much, can I be possessed?" Sadly, I get how someone embedded in the spiritual warfare movement would worry about that. It's so tragic, though. @gohomebible

I'm amused that @JustinDGentry mentioned he "got rid of the devil rather quickly." It's funny to me that leaving the spiritual warfare movement accomplished the goal of the movement far better than the movement itself ever did. @gohomebible

.@ToriGlass calls spiritual warfare a "get out of the work free card" and I think that's a perfect analysis. @gohomebible

Cleaning up the mentions in this thread so that I don't blow up people's personal accounts with even more notifications. @gohomebible

This was an excellent episode that focused on the psychological harms of the spiritual warfare movement. @gohomebible

Now if I can conclude this thread with a little shameless self-promotion. I've covered the spiritual warfare in various threads in the past from a different angle. I often analyze and criticize the movement from a theological and/or magical perspective.

If that's something that would interest you, I'd encourage you to search through my past tweets.

For example, you might be interested in this thread from January where I watched an analyzed a YouTube video by Julia Dee Motycka called "Power, Prayer, and Spiritual Warfare."

[scoupsahoy]

ryan's bad opinion corner

ive outgrown fighting with people on the internet about celebrities and i also do not give a shit about which celebrities people like or dislike. seriously.

however i think it's so insane when people (specifically young, white, american queer kids) decide that people like harry styles or taylor swift are somehow doing harm to the lgbt community when there are actual real people doing actual real harm to the lgbt community. you guys are so lame.

to imply that harry styles "benefits" or "profits" off of being perceived as queer "while never confirming it" is so fucking weird it's actually astounding. i keep seeing stuff like "he gets praised by the media for being gender nonconforming while REAL gender nonconforming people suffer" and it's like. ok

1. isn't the point of people, including cishet men, not adhering to pointless gender structures......... the whole thing? like isn't that what we want? isn't that what normalizing shit is for?

2. are we pretending that harry styles has ever said he's straight? and i literally don't mean this in a tinhat way but did we forget that literally in the past three months he was asked if he was queer because he's "only publicly dated women" and his response was like "well i've never publicly dated anyone, my life is just extremely public". like to say he's one thing or another is extremely disingenuous to queer people who are in the closet. what? are you saying that people have to come out to be gay? or to even be perceived a specific way? is that not fucking counterintuitive

3. are we pretending that the world is not still genuinely a homophobic place? this is where i'm addressing young white queer americans like. i know for the past three years youve been stuck in your house and youre under the impression that the whole world is cool with gay people but You Are Wrong. i live in boston and i'm still not out to my family that i'm nonbinary. i sometimes panic holding my girlfriend's hand in public. living and existing as a queer person as an adult who really really remembers public attitude before gay marriage was legalized across the united states has shaped me in ways i am genuinely glad younger people (in Some Communities) don't have to experience. but that's like. not how the whole world is?? like and i'm just talking about myself here and other non-famous people. like i do not give a shit about harry styles' or taylor swift's sexualities, but consider for a moment that they were queer. please open your eyes if you can't see that it would be GENUINELY difficult to come out?? i don't care how many fans they have. to be like "well <insert other artist here> did it and they handled the backlash" is soooo weird. like telling ME i have to come out to my dad just because other people come out to their dads. you're so weird you're so weird

4. listen you guys weren't there. like you weren't there in like 2011 when harry was like 17 and an article came out that harry had slept with 410 women? this was like a year after he was pursued by caroline flack, who was twice his age, and in the middle of the height of people thinking he was fucking his bandmate like. if you think that guy is going to just. talk about his interpersonal relationships openly, especially if he isn't straight or could be criticized about it in any public way, you are just. willfully ignorant for no reason. and extremely weird.

5. acting like it's anyone but the media's fault that harry styles is praised for his gender presentation where sam smith is not is shifting the blame to a really pointless place. like. acting like the enemy is one singular man and not an entire industry does not make the enemy go away or easier to defeat. in fact you're making it harder. and you're dumb as hell.

this kind of shit pisses me off to no end bc like. harry styles is probably kind of a douchebag at least and his comment at the grammys was weird and tonedeaf but like. not because his outfit "wasn't queer enough" or because he's "openly straight" and i can't believe queer people are at the center of the conversation to complain about a seemingly cishet white man <checks notes> profiting (somehow) off of "being perceived as queer" (wearing an ugly outfit) when they've definitely never participated in active lgbt community work in their lives. i became a way better person when i started volunteering and working with and meeting queer people and ignored weird internet discourse. maybe if you do the same you'll forget to give a fuck about some white man in a jumpsuit and whether or not he's queerbaiting you

[babybabymerrychristmas]

I wish people understood the difference between ignorant and stupid because it'd really solve a lot of issues in communication. I wish I could say things like "I believe you have to be at least a little bit ignorant to believe in religion, but especially mormonism" and people would understand what I'm getting at without having religious people feel like I'm attacking them OR insulting them. This can be applied to a lot of things- white privilege, racism, sexism, etc- but I wish we'd start calling out the ignorance in statements, not the stupidity or whatever morally loaded word we usually throw at people.

I'm not saying not to ever insult bigots, especially if they respond with strawmans, but in general I wish people understood what ignorant meant.

Ignorance: lack of knowledge or information.

In fact, I'd rather be called ignorant than stupid when I'm being uninformed by things. Idk, it just feels like calling something ignorant is way better because all you're saying is they lack information or knowledge. That's such an easy fix!!!

It's such an easy fix to not be ignorant. You just... learn.

But stupidity, that implies a fixed quality about a person. It implies they can't learn a concept and sometimes it can be very effective when a person is too far gone and you're trying to mitigate harm. Pointing a person and calling them a moron signals to other people "this behavior is not okay." It allows stigmatization of bigotry to flourish because everyone else, normal people who are ignorant, they will be swayed by your arguments if they're logically sound.

For ex: recently, I had a terf reply to a post where I said terfs are stupid for defining womanhood as oppression because it doesn't work historically and he responded with some long rant about how women are in fact and universally have been oppressed for being female. This is a fruitless debate to get into because I am starting a position where my fact based opinion just inherently requires you to start at the position I want you to start at.

It is in fact reality to say that women have never been universally oppressed. By responding to that with a "actually they HAVE" is just wrong and racist. Everyone who is more knowledgeable than the replier knows that, I don't have to say African women pre colonization were not oppressed in general. Anti-racists just know that.

At that point, when someone responds with factually inaccurate opinions, they're not willing to learn so a debate with them just causes more trouble than it's worth. What is effective to other people however is seeing a strong reaction to that ideology. The goal at that point is to renounce their lies with an insult and block.

By insulting the lie, you make it known to your audience that you won't tolerate that lie being told. It also normalizes strong reactions to bigotry without moral judgment because sometimes you have to be mean in order to protect your loved ones.

Anyways, I say all this to say: ignorance is not stupidity. It is ignorance and it is your job to handle be called ignorant from time to time. You do that by listening to information being presented and realizing you're not going to be the smartest person in the room everytime.

And when people say "racism is born out of ignorance" learn what that means. Obviously u can sub racism with any word here but my point stands. When The sentence says is not "racist people are stupid" it's "racism comes from a lack of knowledge."

I just wish more people understood that without having to constantly tell people to look up definitions of words.

[theothersarshi]

This is a good addition! (And I'm happy to have you on my post :D)

I started replying here while I was outside and on my phone, but I have Many Thoughts and I'm not as good with a phone as a zoomer, so I'm back on my laptop with an actual keyboard where I'm comfortable typing loads.

I think there are three aspects to this: refusing, accepting refusal and judging who's right and who's wrong.

I wish these three aspects were as connected as many people think they are, but in my experience there isn't a strict relation between them. You have more or less ability to express oneself, more or less ability to read others, more or less willingness to read others.

And judging what actually happened would be hard even if the people doing the judging had all the data - which they never do, because you'd need not only to see what happened, but to have intimate knowledge of what the people involved are like, and what they know of each other. Sure, some cases are clear, but many cases aren't - especially when it's not an actual crime, but a "Was my partner an asshole?" kind of situation.

I'm also well aware of what you mean by people not abiding by a "no", non-verbal or otherwise. Because I was in a sex cult-type situation*, and I've had years to think about consent, assholery, coercion and people pretending they had a good time when they didn't, trust me, I know. If I were talking about accepting refusals, or especially judging situations, I'd be going deep into that topic. There are many ways to get someone to say "yes" in a way that's not actually good.

[* By the way, I don't mind talking about my former cult or analyzing it, but it's not within the scope of this post. If anyone's interested, send an ask or something, I'll reply cheerfully.]

However, I was talking about the importance of learning to say no. And I guess the part I didn't say explicitly, but kind of implied was - let's presume a good-average type of situation. The other person does care about your wellbeing, but they're not uniquely perceptive.

In other cultural contexts, "good behavior" could be prescribed. You don't attempt to have sex with someone you're not married to, for example (of course bad people will do that, but if you're good, you know you shouldn't). Or maybe you don't do other acts that are considered "bad". This pretty much sucks if you want to go crazy with another consenting adult, but it does mean you can fall back on social norms for what's "right" or "wrong" if they coincide with your desires. (It even works for non-sexual things: "I can't do the washing on a Sunday, God would be very angry!")

Today, the world is our oyster, right? It's ok to have sex with another consenting adult. It's ok if you want to go crazy and have sex in unusual ways. The social rules allow a lot more freedom to individuals to do what they want, as long as they don't harm others.

But with power comes responsibility: you get to choose, and you get to enjoy (or hate) the consequences of your actions.

This isn't a way of saying "Women in short skirts deserve it because men lusting over them is their fault", it's a way of saying, "Sometimes you'll choose to have sex on the beach because you think it sounds really cool, but then you'll discover the sand gets *everywhere* and the whole thing sucks, actually." Or, in a non-sex way, you can choose to major in a domain that you later realize you hate working in.

I think there should be possibilities to mitigate bad effects. There should be ways to handle insect bites from that "sex on the beach" episode, and there should be a way to switch careers without being locked into them. But the fact still stands that actions have consequences and you can't undo what you did, you can just take further steps down the line. (Maybe you switch from Law to IT, but it doesn't change the past where you spent years learning Law and the stress you had when you realized you didn't like Law, actually.)

So saying "no" is a way to express a choice. Saying "yes" is another way of expressing a choice. Both have consequences.

Back to saying "no". Sometimes it's hard to express one's desires, especially to others. It can be hard to figure out what you're feeling. But it can also feel kind of unpleasant to bring bad news to somebody ("I don't want to have sex with you" can disappoint). So people can... drift? Into things? And it's the eventual outcome that makes those things "good" or "bad". Or they can do things because others ask, and they never really refuse, but they don't like it - yet they never outwardly express that opposition.

Now, obviously, people can take advantage of others and willingly exploit them in the nebulous area where there's no outward "no". But at other times people can have no intention to harm or coerce anyone, but they can't read minds. So they think their friend gave a soft "yes", and may not realize what's going on until they have tons of accusations about how they "forced" them into things.

Like... if you keep saying "yes" and smiling, the "yes" is easy to take as a "yes", you know? You can be in a relationship with someone who cares about you and wants you to feel comfortable, but you can still blow it by not expressing how you feel, and what you want to do.

This can be about sex. It can also be about something as mundane as being dragged shopping by your mother as a "birthday gift" when you hate shopping. It can be about having a "friends with benefits" type of situation where you decide two or three years later down the road that, even though you never expressed your desire for more and saw the other person once every few months at most, you actually wanted them to commit and you feel your years are "wasted".

Things won't always turn out well. Some people will try to coerce, or they will ignore your refusal. The consequences of the "no" can be very undesired (e.g., if the "friends with benefits" situation ends abruptly, leaving you without someone you were in love with). But avoiding taking responsibility for consequences doesn't remove those consequences, and also your rate of success will be higher if you know what you want and take steps to get it, than if you don't take charge and expect people to know.

The thing about "no means no" is that you actually have to say the "no" at some point for it to take effect.

Being uncomfortable is insufficient on its own, you have to voice it; otherwise people might not guess there's something wrong. Being within your rights to protest doesn't mean you're absolved from communicating said protest.

Freedom and the right to decide for oneself are worth fighting for, but the fight doesn't stop when you get them. Sometimes you have to fight with yourself to explicitly state what you want - and sometimes you have the bad luck of dealing with wrong choices.

But it's still worth it.

[harristops]

Are we sure they are aware of it though? I know Gotham made a post but neither are even on Twitter enough. Not that im defending them, they should say something. It's not like they're really friends with her. Ash has known her for years but it's not as though they're close either. Honestly, Gotham should get a lot backlash if she still has the armband this weekend.

How could they not be? Bro, imagine if their kid was born Indigenous. Would they have stayed silent then, too? Maybe they wouldn't know then either? We can't excuse the silence and I know you're not defending them but c'mon they definitely have to know.

Ash once claimed to be Native American on her dads side, hence why she got that tattoo. If that's the case, why wouldn't she speak out against what the captain said? If she truly identifies or has family that are Native American, are you truly okay with what your captain said? It just doesn't make sense.

I get there might be some legalize involved in keeping quiet bro but at what cost? It's like other people said, if they can't tweet about it, the least they can do is vote McCall off the captain band or at the very minimum retweet Madison's tweet which again, provides helpful perspective on how to decolonize the way we talk and unlearn harmful phrases or sayings. But they did nothing. So no, I don't care if they're not aware because honestly that would be worse than being willfully ignorant, imo. If they keep saying they are striving to change the future of women's sports to be more inclusive of all people, gender, sexuality, culture, then prove it. Speak out when it's inconvenient. Use your massive platform to advocate for the rights of those who don't have the same privileges or power. At the very least, come to the defense of the sole Indigenous person in the fucking league and show her she's not alone.

And I am not just talking about the wives. I am talking about every person in the NWSL. The fact people haven't retweeted Madison and told her that they appreciate her vulnerability and courage to speak out (because imagine how terrifying that could've been) and to do it with such grace, professionalism, and class---all the while McCall throws a sob fest for racist ass---is bullshit if you ask me. You want the make the league safer for players, then do it. Right now you have an egotistical White woman running her mouth with no repercussions and the sole person verbally calling her out is the person from the community she is harming. I am so tired of the excuses we give White women and how much leeway we give them for "forgiveness" when they barely apologize.

I don't want to hear another thing from anyone about how they use their platform to advocate for change, the wives or otherwise. Show me you actually care by doing something and making good on those promises. Show us exactly what you as a team are discussing, the resources you are using, the people you are speaking to and the things you are learning. Show us action.

The fact that McCall can't even muster up a proper apology and her half-assed attempt to correct herself after the fact shows me she doesn't care. The fact Gotham's blanket statement of handling things internally while producing no results (Scott not speaking about it independently, Gotham refusing to take her armband or better yet, fire her), shows me they don't care. No one cares about what she said or depth of how much the words she used perpetuate hurt and harm against Indigenous communities.

I know what you meant in your ask, and you're right not to defend the wives. Anyone who says the wives, or anyone else on the team (Midge, Kristie, Nicole-all of them, but especially all the damned White women) are absolved of any guilt or blameless are part of the problem. If you are going to tell people you want to use your platform for advocacy, then you don't just get to advocate when it's convenient or it's the current zeitgeist.

Pinoe was willing to risk her career when she first knelt. And she didn't give a damn because she realized sport is not as important as ensuring equal rights for all. That's true activism. Now I don't agree with everything that she has done but she's done one hell of a lot more than other people.

All I can blindly hope is that the team and front office talked about this in depth and actually learned from the mistakes she made. I hope they're figuring out ways to undo the harm that's been done. Honestly the easiest solution is to make Dorsey captain and bench Zerboni at least a few days. But they have to do something other than just give a blanket statement for real.

[crashdevlin]

Another Second Chance 17- Everything Changes

Another Second Chance Masterlist, Happily Ever Eventually Masterlist

Author’s Note: The final (hopefully) installment of the Happily Ever Eventually RPF series.

Summary: Y/n and Danneel talk which forces Y/n to share a bit of truth with Nova.

Pairing: Jensen x Reader

Word count: 2934

Story Warnings: past cheating, Nova is not nice to Danneel, Nova is a very protective daughter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Danneel looks a little shocked. Not like she’s shocked to see me, but maybe that she’s shocked that I didn’t run away and hide. She shakes herself out of it and smiles back at me. “Hey, sweetie. I guess we had to run into each other eventually, didn’t we?”

I nod and look back toward the dressing rooms. “Yeah. Austin’s big, but not that big.” I feel a bit uncomfortable as I gesture at the dresses. “I’m getting Nova some nice stuff for the Out Youth Gala.”

“Oh, yeah.” She nods and fiddles with her purse strap. Seems she’s just as uncomfortable. “Jensen mentioned he was taking her. I told him I’d stay home for this one.”

"You don't have to sit it out. You could still-"

"It'd be pretty tense. Jensen and I haven't been able to be around each other for more than a few minutes at a time in...well, in years.” Well, that’s a confirmation of Jensen’s words that I never thought I’d get. “Besides...a young bi girl, she deserves to rub elbows with those people. I’ve already met most of them.”

“Thanks for...giving it up this year.” I want to rub the back of my neck. I want to hug myself. I want to tug on my hair a bit. I’m tense and I don’t like feeling like this. I don’t, though. I keep my smile and I stay polite. I learned this a long time ago.

“Of course, sweetie.” God, that makes me cringe.

“Can you…” How do I say this without sounding rude? “Not call me that?”

She nods, understanding immediately. “Sorry. Default. I…” She runs her fingers through her hair and lets out a soft scoff. “I’m not really good at this. I should have just walked back out when I saw you.”

“No, no, that’s…” I sigh. “This is awkward. For both of us. Last time we talked, I was so angry and sad and-”

“And now you’ve got Jensen back and everything is coming up for you.”

That hits a little bitter.

“Danneel...I…” I scoff and shake my head, crossing my arms over my chest.  “The fact that I’m with Jensen again has nothing to do with the upward mobility of my existence...and, you know, I’m sorry that you and Jay didn’t work out, but I stepped out after you got caught together. You had five years to get him back and make things work.”

"I'm sorry. I didn't mean it like that." She shakes her head. "No, well, I guess a little. I just always thought one day he'd stop pining over you and come home." Guess she's still in love. Jensen just isn't a man who's easy to get over, is he? "Guess that was wishful thinking."

"I tried, Dee. I told him...I told you. I stepped back at every opportunity so that I wouldn't ever be in the way of your love."

"I know. From the very beginning, you tried to stay out of the way but we didn't really want that."

I roll my eyes. "You both wanted to have your cake and eat it but that's not how the world works." Not my world, anyway. "That Happy Family Fantasy? I talked myself into that. I tried to be what would have made you and Jensen happiest, but I couldn't do it. Trying hurt me. That single night that ruined everything…and when I realized that it wouldn't ever work with me and him and you, I stepped away, just like I stepped away when I realized my involvement with him was harming your marriage. I did everything I could to make sure you didn't lose him and-"

"What do you think of this one, Mum?" Nova's voice stops me and I turn toward the dressing room. She looks gorgeous...and angry. "What's she doing here?"

"It's a free country, Nova. She can shop where she likes." I clear my throat, try to get the bitterness out of my voice. "Genevieve is the one who introduced me to this shop. I assume that she-"

"I expected Gen to have better taste in friends."

"Not the time for the attitude," I snap at her.

"I don't have an attitude." She crosses her arms over her chest.

"Yes, you do and you need to stop."

"I just don't understand why you're standing there, talking to the woman who ruined your relationship with Jensen last time. You can't just-"

"It's more complicated than all that, sweetie." Don't talk, Danneel. She's already about to go into fight mode.

"It's not," Nova practically growls. "It's not complicated. He was dating my mother and you were caught shoving your tongue down his throat. That's crappy but it's not complicated!"

"Nova. Stop!" Mom Voice better work. I don’t want anything to show up on TMZ about a fight between my daughter and Danneel in the middle of a damn dress shop.

"No!" She did not just stomp her foot and-  "What, you think that just because you let Jensen fuck around with her while you were married to him that she has to be okay with him fucking around with you?"

My eyes go wide as she leans forward, trying to intimidate Dee. My heart starts pounding and I step between them, look up into my daughter's eyes. "Go get your clothes back on. Right fucking now."

"But, Mum!"

"I don't know who you think you are right now, little girl, but I am your mother and you're going to listen. Go. Get. Changed."

She stomps as she heads back to the dressing room. My heart is still going a mile a minute as I turn back to Danneel. "I'm...sorry about her. She...thinks she knows things and she...does know some things and she's protective and…" I scratch at my brow. "She doesn't want to see me break again."

"None of us do, swee-...Y/n. She's not wrong to be upset at me. Jensen's still upset at me about it."

I shake my head. "No, he's not. Did he never explain to you…" He really doesn't talk to her anymore. "It's not that he's mad at you, Danneel. He couldn’t come back because he had to change. He had to stop being the man that would ruin his life over selfish desires. You were...you were a constant reminder of what that old man had done. He couldn’t come back...not on his own, anyway." I don't know why that last thought escapes but it does.

"What do you mean?" she asks.

"Did you try to get him back?" I don't know why I'm asking this. Why do I care? "You asked me five years ago if Jensen wasn't worth fighting for. Did you fight for him? Or did you just sit at home, hoping he'd crawl back to you eventually? Did you fight?"

Because if she fought, if she tried, and he didn’t come back, that means he's really done with her. He really became a different man and he doesn't need or want her. He became a different man who just wants me.

"Are we leaving?" Nova asks as she hooks the hangers on the closest rack and approaches with her arms still crossed over her chest.

"Yeah. Grab the blue dress you tried on, take it to the register." She rolls her eyes and grabs the dress, walking toward the till.

"It was nice talking to you, Danneel." I start walking away to go pay for No's dress, but Danneel's voice stops me.

"I did fight. I tried. He wouldn't hear it." I look at her over my shoulder. "He was too caught up in the liquor and the loss." She tucks her hair behind her ear and gives a sad smile. "I fought for him. I lost him anyway."

I hate to acknowledge the elation I'm feeling, but it's there. He’s really mine. He's really mine and I won’t have to worry about her stealing his heart.

"I'm sorry, Danneel." It's all I can think to say. I know that losing Jensen couldn't have been easy. I walked away and it wasn't easy to lose him.

"I'm sorry, sweetie. I never should have-"

"Things were complicated. They're less complicated now."

She nods. "For you."

Shit, I can't feel guilty about this. "Yes. Things are less complicated for me. I hope things get better for you." I head for the register and I pay for Nova's dress. Danneel is gone from the shop by the time we turn around to leave.

"Mum, I'm sorry, I-" Nova starts as we walk toward the car.

"Shut up."

She scoffs angrily. "That’s so rude!"

"Get in the car," I demand, tossing her dress in the back.

"Mum! I said I was-"

"And I said 'Shut up'." I drop into the driver's seat and wait for her to get in and shut her door. "First off, how fucking dare you say any words out of my mouth are rude with the way you spoke to Danneel in there? How dare you try to lecture your mother on how to speak to you when you obviously don't know how to speak to a woman who you probably don’t remember meeting and who did absolutely nothing to harm you.”

She opens her mouth to argue, but I keep talking. “I am fucking mortified that you would talk to her like that. You don’t know her. You met her once when we brought your little brother home from Vegas and you have no right to talk to her like that. She might not deserve your fucking respect, but I am not raising a disrespectful little brat. You can have your opinions and you can even voice them but you have no right to make her feel like shit about something that she’s been hammered about and called a homewrecker about for five fucking years. You wanna be a feminist, you wanna lift women up? You don’t fucking attack them for a mistake she made in the past. She fucked up and hurt me but you don’t even know the extent of it, because you are my daughter. You are not my manager, my bodyguard, or my fucking knight in armor, Nova. You are my daughter and I love you for trying to protect me, but I had that interaction handled and I didn’t need you flying off the handle at her. You weren’t even that bad with Jensen and he did worse than she did!”

She’s got tears in her eyes...and I feel bad for hurting her feelings, but...I’m right. She went too far.

“And while this is not something I ever thought I’d be talking to you about, you seem to think you know something about something so I’ll tell you that it doesn’t matter that Danneel and Jensen had an open marriage because that wasn’t what muddled everything up at the end and made them so bold as to be fucking around with each other while I was in Vancouver.”

“What? You--did something...happen before that?”

Again, not a conversation I thought I would be having with her...definitely not a conversation I’m going to have with her when she’s in trouble. “Doesn’t matter right now. What matters right now is that you’re fuckin’ grounded until the Gala. No electronics.”

“What?!” she exclaims indignantly.

“Yeah and if you don’t take your punishment gracefully, I’ll extend it past the Gala, too. You’ll get one night and then you’ll be grounded again. You want that?”

“No,” she grumbles. Me either, No. I hate being the bad guy...but I’ve always been better at it than Nate.

"When we get home, I want you to gather up your laptop, game consoles, and the cable box for your TV and put them in the garage. You can read a few books for entertainment."

"Okay." She sounds so dejected but...it’s what I have to do to get the point across.

"Good."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“I’ll talk to Dee,” Jensen volunteers. “I’m sure she’s not-”

I shake my head. “I just can’t believe Nova went so vicious...and I think I’m going to have to tell her what happened back then.”

“You don’t have to. She doesn’t have to know.”

“She doesn’t have to know. But...she knows enough to be judgmental and-” What if she judges me afterward? What if she judges me for pressuring myself? What if she decides that I was in the wrong? What if she thinks it wasn’t cheating because we had a three-way, even though they both knew I didn’t want them together without me? “It’s better if I’m honest with her. If she decides to hold the threesome against me, then that’s...well, that’s her prerogative, but I think it’s better for everyone if she knows the truth.”

“You want me there?” he offers and I bite my bottom lip. I’d love to have the support, but…

“No. I think it’d be a better conversation for just me and her. She’s still kinda defensive around you.”

“Okay. Let me know how it goes, okay?”

“Yeah, I will. Tell Dee I’m sorry.”

“I will. I love you, Baby Girl.”

“Love you, too, Jay.”

I hang up the phone and head for the kitchen. I make a cup of coffee and sit at the table to drink it. I start running through ways this conversation can go, pieces of dialogue in a story. The conversations never really go like they do in my head. But I rehearse them anyway.

I finish my coffee and head up the stairs to her room. I knock. She groans and calls me to come in. I walk in and sit on the edge of her bed. She’s slouching in the bean bag chair in the corner, a book in her grasp. “When I got together with Jensen the first time, he was still married. I know you know that.” I look up at her ceiling. “Danneel agreed to an open marriage...but Jensen fucked it up. He fell in love with me. So, I left. I started dating Tom.” She makes a disgusted sound, but I keep talking. “You know this. Whatever post or article you read, you know this, but you don’t know that I started hanging with Danneel after Tom tried to rape me. We got drunk and I kissed her.”

Nova’s eyes go wide. “I was shocked when I did it, too...and I immediately told Jay. I felt so guilty and confused and...as soon as I told him, he decided that I needed to sleep with her.” I lick my lips. “He was a bit selfish back then. Pretty much very selfish back then...and he wanted both of us again. He admitted to it...that he pushed for me and her to sleep together. I couldn’t...but he really wanted it, us together...so Danneel and I came up with an idea...all three of us together.”

“You slept with both of them?” she asked, her voice a bit squeaky and very judgemental.

“Just once. I woke up the morning after and I couldn’t...I couldn’t deal. I felt dirty. I’d pressured myself into doing something just for Jay and Dee and it was bad. It was bad for me. Dr. McCauliffe told me that I should tell them how it made me feel, but I couldn’t. Disappointing them was something I couldn't do. I probably would have convinced myself to do it again eventually...and it would have broken me even further. I would have let it happen because I didn’t care about my mental health. I cared about them."

I'm afraid to look at her. Is she judging me? Is she disgusted?

"They both knew I didn’t want them touching each other. Not without me. But they both knew that I was unlikely to let it happen again...that I was having trouble with the first time and it was going to be an issue to do it again. That's why they...did what they did. They didn't think they'd get caught. They didn't think it would destroy me if they did."

"That’s worse!" she exclaims and I look over at her. She looks livid. "They knew you were falling apart!"

I rub at the back of my neck and nod. "Yeah, but they really wanted-"

"What you wanted didn’t matter? What you deserved? I can't believe them!"

"There’s a reason I had to end it all, why I had to get five years of distance. There's a reason why Jensen had to become a whole new man." I lick my lips and sigh. "They both betrayed me, Nova. They hurt me and it's taken five years to get us all okay and that's why I can't abide the way you talked to Danneel, because she lost everything too. She was selfish and horrible and she lost everything over it. She doesn't need a teenage girl giving her all this attitude over it."

She looks away and scratches at the back of her hand. "She deserved it."

"You don't get to make that determination." I lean forward and take her hand in mine. "I know that my mental break and breakup hurt you, No, but I'm the one they betrayed. I'm the one they broke...and I've decided to forgive."

"But-"

"But nothing. They've changed. I've changed. Things are better. Do you understand?"

She looks down and sighs. "I understand."

I pat her hand and stand. "You're still in trouble. But I love you, Nova."

"I love you, too."

~~~

The Kitchen Sink - @emoryhemsworth @flamencodiva @wasabiwitteks @rainbowkisses31 @rissbennett @mariekoukie6661 @officiallyunofficialperson @dolphincliffs @mrs-meghan-winchester @gayspacenerd @foxyjwls007 @ilovefanfic86 @marvelfansworld @f-yeahfandoms @wonderlandfandomkingdom @hhiggs @sev3nruby @hobby27 @paintballkid711 @divadinag @thewhiterabbit42 @fantasymyth-1 @queenoftheunderdark @cosicas-cuquis @superfanficnatural @letsby @supernatural-bellawinchester @onethirstyunicorn @swinchester27 @chalicia @screechingartisancashbailiff @death-unbecomes-you @dayasvalkyrie @paryl @wereallbrokenangels @the-american-witch @that-one-gay-girl @tatted-trina6 @sunshineandwings86 @lunarmoon8 @wheezyeds @vicmc624 @couldabeenamermaid @vulgar-library

[icaruskey]

Congratulations, you've made a point stupid enough for someone to tell me and for me to unblock you. I'm just going through this line by line because this is the only way my ADHD can handle it rn.

I’m only talking about the reactionary elements among trans men

I see you learned how to use qualifiers now, after someone called you out for being a fucking nonce in your last post. Here's the thing, if you're wanting to call a group out in a place where people can see it and respond to it as they see fit, you gotta be specific. Kill all men? Congrats, now you've lumped in trans men with that. All lesbians are TERFS? Excellent, now the majority of lesbians are mad at you.

You did the same thing in that post, and since you've been called out on it you can't even be bothered to apologize.

the most active and heinous of whom will need to experience revolutionary violence

I'm just bookmarking this for later

If we are to overthrow male dominance,

I'm going to assume you mean the patriarchy and you're not totally ignoring how race and class and mental and physical health and poverty and etc etc etc intersect in such a way that in fact makes all but a very, very small group of men actually have any power.

I mean, you're not a libfem right? You're a gender abolitionist that isn't a TERF yeah? So you of all people should be aware of how much the patriarchy crushes men as well as women.

we will not do it with sentiments. If we are to stop those who perpetrate reactionary violence, including that which is enacted on trans men, it will not be with sentiments.

First, love the fact that trans men are an afterthought in your mind. Secondly, so? Sentiments, sentiments, sentiments? Stop blowing smoke up people's asses with your talk and speak plainly. The fuck you talking about? Or is this just propaganda speech to make yourself feel better?

That included the attention of a particular individual who I responded to, and then made a few angry posts about. That individual was a detransitioned former trans man who is a t-rf and an anti-Semite.

Funny how you are now acknowledging that your generalized posts about trans men is about a single individual that, until I called you out, you kept calling a libfem. Funny that I did like 15 minutes of poking around and got more of a complete picture than you did.

We cannot meet those who are in the enemy camp with baseless calls to unity among the transsexual or queer “family”, baseless calls to in effective “non-violent” strategies that kill people every day with their ineffectiveness to overthrow the violent regime around us.

More propaganda, nothing words.

If trans men are in the progressive camp

"If" is very telling of your feelings about trans men.

But those trans men who are regressive, those who are reactionary (abusers, transmisogynists, etc.) will have to be repressed.

The way you're talking is just oh so frustrating so I'm gonna try and translate for the sake of my own brain.

Trans men who are shitty people need to be... repressed? Okay, I don't get what you're trying to say here. Repress their identity? Their platform? Their lives? Because a lot of people do all of those things for a variety of reasons. Personally, I think anyone who is spreading a harmful message should be made to step down from public platforms if they have a platform that is listened to. And I also think that it's worth responding to (some) people whose views and actions actively undermine other people's lives not because we will be able to change their opinion but as a way to show those who have been hurt by that rhetoric or are on the fence that there is actually an open set of arms on the side that embraces their humanity.

It's rather why I'm responding to you actually.

You all understand repressing cis lesbians who are “t-rf,” and oppressing those who are not but who you label as such.

Actually, some of the most vocal trans men and masculine aligned individuals on this website push back hard against the idea of labelling people with roles they themselves do not express. TERF is a very specific type of person. Someone can be a transphobe and a feminist, or a transphobe and general asshole. But TERF is a very specific type of transphobe who uses bioessentialism to exclude trans women from their "club" based off their AGAB being the "violent" gender and belittle, dehumanize, and ostracize AFAB people who have "chosen" to leave their club.

So why are you opposed to analysis of the class factors that shape particular groups of trans men in negative directions?

We're not. One of my favorite blogs says as much (sorry, I won't be linking him since I don't see you making any response in good faith and he doesn't need the potential harassment), talking about how he's in a female dominated career and finds that with a certain customer, he's the only that's treated seriously. I've talked about how as the only trans person (+white +transmasc) in my program I end up being a voice of authority for subjects that quite frankly I have to actively outsource to online sources to give nuanced, expanded answers.

The group of trans masc bloggers I'm a part of have actively ousted certain toxic people from our friend groups and have actively discouraged negative behavior from our followers. We call each other out and act as an extra set of eyes to make sure we're not being stupid and blinded by our own biases, subconscious or otherwise.

You know what makes us clam up? Your next post, which I will post in whole below before taking it apart as well:

Some trans men are blinded by male privilege. Some trans men are not. Those who are envious of cis male status like to act as if there is no problem when the worst elements among them shoot and kill children, abuse their (usually more marginalized) partners, and explicitly join the t-rf movement, the alt right, and other enemies of the great majority of trans people. Whether it is a school shooting, as recently occurred, or a former trans man t-rf as is happening constantly, trans women are left to pay the consequences while a great many trans men pretend it’s just a deranged individual, or else make excuses and choose halfhearted, wishy-washy tactics where trans men or former trans men are involved while ruthlessly going after trans women for “tr-nsmisandry” and in general exacerbating the whole situation with aggressive and essentially adventurist (if we extend the use of this term to the internet where they are so emboldened) tactics towards the t-rfs.

Some trans men are blinded by male privilege. Some trans men are not.

Congratulations, you have basically said nothing here. Some people are x, some people aren't. This is basically true for everything and everyone. Except for death I suppose. There is no isn't for human mortality. There just is.

Those who are envious of cis male status like to act as if there is no problem when the worst elements among them

I was going to just let this go into the full statement but it's very long and very angry and you are putting a lot of assumptions on a massive group of people. 1.6 million people in the US alone identify as transgender --- and of those 1.6 million, 35% of them identify strictly as trans men (38% trans women, 25% nonbinary). That's 480,000 people in the US alone, 18+ alone, that you're generalizing here.

shoot and kill children,

You're talking about the school shooter, aren't you?

abuse their (usually more marginalized) partners,

Source?

and explicitly join the t-rf movement,

??? Do you have someone specific in mind, or are you generalizing from the detransitioned TERF from earlier?

the alt right,

Two words: Blaire White

and other enemies of the great majority of trans people.

Again, nearly half a million adults in the US alone identified as a trans man and you're generalizing this entire population into this. Why?

Might it be because we identify as... men?

Very gender abolitionist of you.

Whether it is a school shooting, as recently occurred,

Yeah, I figured you were talking about this. There's been four mass shootings committed by openly trans people, and two of them were trans men. If there's a backlash against trans women (and there's a backlash against trans men btw. The whole testosterone is poison and ruining our women thing again. Which you would recognize as awful if you actually stopped and thought for a moment instead of saying empty words), it's because trans men are hyperinvisible in mainstream media. Which is a... problem. You know how that's a problem? A bad thing? Right? Being erased constantly isn't exactly a privilege. Or do you think the opposite?

or a former trans man t-rf as is happening constantly,

You can't fucking blame half a million people for someone who is no longer part of the community. Do you think she joined the trans masc community and somehow got brainwashed into identifying as a woman and sipping the hate all men and "men" juice? How the fuck does that make sense?

The only way the trans (general) community is to blame is by us not providing more support for questioning and detransitioning siblings. But right now you're basically doing this:

while a great many trans men pretend it’s just a deranged individual, or else make excuses and choose halfhearted, wishy-washy tactics where trans men

what

here is where I fucking lost all faith that you were at least incredibly misguided in the way you're talking about trans masculinity and men in general. I don't like labelling people, but I can tell you what your behavior is reminiscent of.

TIRF

trans inclusive radical feminist.

What is a TIRF? Glad you asked!

Basically it's all the worst parts of radical feminism (which tbh is p much all of it really as it just flattens all nuance into an us vs them narrative and basically thinks turning the patriarchy into a matriarchy is the solution---really oversimplifying here but let's not get into nearly 50 years of history rn) but "trans women are women" so you get a coat of queer approved paint.

You aren't a gender abolitionist. If you were, genuinely, you would not hate men the way you do. You would realize that gender as a social construct hurts fucking everyone and very few people benefit from it in any way. You'd recognize the nuance of privilege and the fact that a lot more than your genitals or your gender identity goes into how people treat you.

But this? By seeing trans men condemning the Nashville shooter while also pushing for his name and pronouns to be respected, you think we're ignoring him?

Should we condemn trans women for the baeddels from 2013, for Jessica Yaniv, Blaire White, Caitlyn Jenner? If you say no, then why are you demanding all trans men to lay on their swords for another bad person?

or former trans men

WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS LEFT THE COMMUNITY.

are involved while ruthlessly going after trans women for “tr-nsmisandry”

"ruthlessly"

Talking about our own problems and then getting defensive when we're told our problems aren't real and/or responding to derogatory comments in a tag we created to discuss said problems is more like.

Or do you think a nearly year long harassment campaign against an individual is justified because he's a man and they're two women?

and in general exacerbating the whole situation with aggressive and essentially adventurist (if we extend the use of this term to the internet where they are so emboldened) tactics towards the t-rfs.

So says the person who told a TERF they should be shot.

I'm torn on whether to reblock you or not. I'm pretty irritated and I know nothing is gonna happen to change your mind. Your sentiments on men, masculinity, and manhood are clear.

Like I said, I'm not going to label you. You remind me of a TIRF though, and as someone who was forced to stop calling themself a gender abolitionist because of the ties to TERF ideology, you're definitely not that either.

Since people are making an issue of it, I’m only talking about the reactionary elements among trans men, the most active and heinous of whom will need to experience revolutionary violence.

If we are to overthrow male dominance, we will not do it with sentiments. If we are to stop those who perpetrate reactionary violence, including that which is enacted on trans men, it will not be with sentiments.

Seeing as I have a post going around, it attracted some attention. That included the attention of a particular individual who I responded to, and then made a few angry posts about. That individual was a detransitioned former trans man who is a t-rf and an anti-Semite.

We cannot meet those who are in the enemy camp with baseless calls to unity among the transsexual or queer “family”, baseless calls to in effective “non-violent” strategies that kill people every day with their ineffectiveness to overthrow the violent regime around us.

If trans men are in the progressive camp then I will welcome them as comrades. If they are moderate, then I will try and ideologically and politically educate them. But those trans men who are regressive, those who are reactionary (abusers, transmisogynists, etc.) will have to be repressed. You all understand repressing cis lesbians who are “t-rf,” and oppressing those who are not but who you label as such. So why are you opposed to analysis of the class factors that shape particular groups of trans men in negative directions?

[thebonggirll]

chapter ten

< previous: chapter nine

"Why did you interfere!" she yelled as soon as they reached home, "We told you keep your mouth shut didn't we?"

"Are you serious? He was literally-" Y/N was cut short as her mother continued yelling at her.

"I don't care what he did, and I don't want to know! I told you to stay away from them! It isn't your business!"

"It IS our business mom, he hit her head in front of the whole family! It's a get together, I get it, we should all be happy but how are you all excusing his behavior being adults?!" Her father went straight to the bedroom. He was already angry and didn't want to argue any further.

"He's just messing with his sister," her mother said, eyebrows furrowed.

"I think her little outburst meant that she had enough of his 'teasing'. It's very weird how none of you took her seriously."

"It wasn't serious until you started arguing at him! Imagine what your uncles and aunties think of you now!"

"Ofcourse. That's all you care about. Reputation right?"

"That's not what I meant-"

"And because I'm a girl. You think we are that stupid? That we won't notice how men and women are treated differently in our family?! You think I find it nice to see people squinting their nose when they know you have a daughter?!"

"Shut up and go to your room," her mother picked up her bag and stormed towards the bedroom muttering, "Unlike you, I'm not jobless."

"A secretary of the vice-president of the company," Y/N shouted looking at her mother halt by her steps, "And that's the highest you can go."

Her mother turned and started yelling, but she couldn't hear what she was saying. Her face started looking blurry and then everything turned black. She felt her neck tickle. Opening her eyes slowly, Y/N was presented with Eunyu's face sticking close to her face. She gasped and got up, realizing sweat has formed on her forehead and neck. The girl standing with a grin on her face said, "What were you dreaming about?" Eunyu looked at her face and let out a chuckle, "Must be my brother since you're feeling so hot."

Y/N was in no mood to joke with her. And she was not happy with the dream she had. Not a dream, a memory. "What do you need?" she asked.

"Nothing," she smiled, "Heard you wanted to know the results."

"Since you're here to report...I guess it isn't good."

Eunyu gasped dramatically, "Hey, my brother is not as bad as you think. Mr. Kim started getting a nosebleed. So we decided to lock the two weirdoes in a room."

Y/N chuckled, a little bit of her enjoyed the fact that the residents of the whole building will now finally be able to rest without him breathing down their necks. "Well what do you know, karma's a bitch."

Her stomach growled as she looked up at Eunyu in embarrassment. The girl smiled at her and said, "The supermarket is free to use now."

Y/N finally ate to her heart's content. With that man gone, it made some things easier for everyone. She looked at the chocolate bars and took two with herself. Keeping them in her pocket, she walked towards the room where both the...infected were locked in. It was quite obvious that the guy meant no harm, and from the looks of it, everyone was already treating him like a monster. The least she wanted to do was to be nice, to avoid making him into a monster permanently.

But as she approached the room, she noticed Eunhyuk whispering into Hyunsu's ears. "What is he doing outside?" she asked.

Eunhyuk turned to face her and said, "Helping us. You don't need to know about it."

He started walking away but Y/N blocked his path again. "I think I need to since you're always doing something without informing anyone. In any case if some danger comes across I would know who to blame it on."

She meant it. By now she understood that Eunhyuk wanted nothing other than what was best for survival. It didn't matter how unethical it was. "He survived because of golden hour. I think he can handle the work that we can't."

"He's still a human-"

"Can you do the same and walk out there? Can you help me with the plans like him? Can you go out there and fight the monsters?" Eunhyuk stared at her face and sighed. Pushing up his glasses, he walked away.

Y/N turned towards Hyunsu who was standing like a lost puppy, and when you think about it he was kind of like one. Like he was following orders of his master. She did feel a bit sorry for him. He didn't ask to be like this. It wasn't his fault. But now he was being forced to do stuffs that he had no idea if he could handle.

"Um," she pulled out the chocolate bars from her pocket and gave it to him, "I..know it's not helpful but you won't be that hungry."

He nodded his head and took it from her hands. He slowly walked towards the staircase.

"Hyunsu!" Y/N shouted and walked towards him. She pulled him a bit closer and whispered in his ear, "Don't worry about what he said. Saving yourself should be your top priority."

He looked at her for a moment and left. His eyes were wide, as he didn't understand why someone would suggest such a thing to him. Hours ago, he was thinking of the exact opposite. He looked back at her. She was being dragged away by Eunhyuk. She got into trouble, didn't she?

Well, it shouldn't be a surprise. A lot of people got into trouble because of him.

Y/N wasn't even pulling her arm away. She watched him hastily taking her towards the bathroom. "What did you say to him?" he asked.

She chuckled, "What?" They had a little fight. But it felt like Eunhyuk didn't consider her close enough to even think about it. He wasn't going to apologize for kicking her out of the room, or even talk about it. It was like he didn't even care. All he cared about was his plans. Some of which fucked up lives of people. She couldn't help but laugh at herself. It was almost unbelievable that they were making out a day ago. She didn't want to feel like this. This was what she wanted to avoid from the beginning. But the worst part of it was that...she felt all of it alone. There was nothing from his side. Nothing.

"You can ruin our plans. Why can't you just mind your own business? I asked you what did you say to him," he said. His eyes searched for the hidden emotions that he was able to surface before. But this time she masked it well. But did she actually mask it? He wanted to know if she was hurt. And going by her behavior, she looked like she forgot about it. Eunhyuk thought it would take more than a day for her to talk back to him, but she moved on from it pretty quick.

Y/N smiled and came close to him. He didn't step back, waiting for her to do what she...wanted to do. What he thought she would do.

Instead, her mouth came close to his ears and she whispered, "You don't need to know it."

next: chapter eleven >

one last time

MASTERLIST

[swinging-stars-from-satellites]

UHHH OK HANG ON LEMME THINK UP SOME GOOD ONES--ok how about something with Jack and Ruth?? (from Benny's Legion stuff obvs) because I love them and I would love to read something about them and New Year's celebrations 👀

OOOOOH OKAY listen I've never ever written them before but I adore the Legion fam with all my heart so here have this small offering:

Despite the surprising amount of relative peace and safety contained in the White Rabbit, Legion as a whole is not a particularly nice planet to live on, and Ruth is slightly too nice of a person. She is also very small, and very aware of that. But she is not a coward, and she is perfectly capable of doing her own shopping by herself. She faced the Epoch themselves, after all — she can handle whatever ruffians Legion's city market throws at her just fine.

That's what she tells the others when they express concern, and for the most part they leave it at that. But, much to her chagrin and simultaneously her relief, she spots Jack in the crowd, pretending — badly — to browse. He also pretends, badly, to notice her, and his face light up in a grin. That, at least, is genuine, she can tell, and she smiles back despite herself.

"Oh, Ruth," Jack says, "How nice to run into you!"

Ruth sighs. "Hullo, Jack," she replies, and unsurprisingly, when she starts walking, he trails along behind her. "You can stop pretending you're here by accident, by the way," she adds.

"Me?" Jack gives her a shocked look and places a hand over his heart. "Pretending? You wound me, Ruth, you really do."

"Mmhmm." Ruth suppresses an amused smile — she doesn't want to give him the satisfaction.

Jack, for once, seems perfectly willing to be quiet while she does her shopping, so she can't complain. She also can't deny that she does feel a bit safer when he's around — for as much as she doesn't like anyone thinking they have to take care of her, she does feel quite small sometimes amongst the feral kinds of people Legion is home to. She offers a bit of commentary here and there and has to hide her laughter when Jack pretends — again, badly — to understand or care.

Ruth is, as a matter of fact, very small. She ducks her head and tries to ignore the large, humanoid man who nearly knocks her over when he bumps into her. She's not one for conflict, really, but her eyes go wide when the other person grabs her.

Glowering down at her, he crosses his arms. "What was that?" He says, accusatory. "You just ran into me and you're not even gonna apologize?"

Ruth opens her mouth, whether to argue that he bumped her, not the other way around, or to simply apologize and move on, but Jack beats her to it. She'd almost forgotten he's there, until he suddenly steps between her and the other guy.

"Okay, listen." Jack says. "You were the one who ran into her, and why the big deal about it? Have you ever heard the phrase no harm no foul?"

The other guy's frown deepens, and Ruth starts to fear he has a weapon — she's got a communicator with a direct line to Peter if she needs it, and she's thinking she might — but Jack doesn't let him get a word in.

"And by the way, who gave you the right to talk to her like that? Or anyone, but that's not the point. What you need," he says with a smirk, "Is to go home, drink a healthy helping of respect women juice, and rethink some things. Now, Ruthie and I have shopping to do, thank you very much." Jack throws an arm around Ruth and begins to lead her away, before stopping to add one more thing: "And have a very nice day."

Ruth blinks, opens her mouth to say something, decided against it, then settles on: "Where did 'Ruthie' come from?"

"It's a term of endearment."

"Okay." She's quiet for another minute, then: "I think I'm glad you came along, actually."

"Did I come along, though? Or did I happen to cross paths with you?"

Ruth snorts. "Sure."